這是我第一次參與的英文 Podcast 集數！很榮幸受邀到《The LifeMaxx Podcast》，與我非常敬重的上司兼同事一起聊聊完美主義、職業倦怠，以及如何跳脫生產力陷阱。無論是在個人生活、身邊的朋友或是臨床個案身上，我常看到大家因為覺得「做得不夠」或「不夠好」而陷入自責。我們很少有機會去探索這些情緒背後的故事，但當我們開始對此感到好奇，或許就能找到重新定義生產力的方法。
Sandra 作為首位嘉賓加入 The LifeMaxx Podcast，與主持人 Aaron Quiroz（LMFT、Modern Life Solutions 臨床主任）進行了一場深度對話。Aaron 的臨床工作聚焦於創傷取向，探索驅動成癮、低自尊和毒性羞恥感的潛意識模式。他專精於 EMDR 和 Brainspotting，以務實、直接且非傳統的方式進行療癒工作。
對話從 Sandra 從台灣移居美國的旅程展開——她帶著的期望、遭遇的文化衝擊，以及外界對台灣的常見誤解。接著轉向完美主義、倦怠和持續保持高效的壓力。Sandra 分享了自己每週接見 50 位個案卻仍覺得不夠的經歷，以及她如何開始質疑這份驅動力背後的故事。他們討論了健康的羞恥感與毒性羞恥感的區別、高效文化如何滲透到自我照顧和個人成長中，以及打破這個循環的實際方法——包括價值觀探索、自我誠實和日誌書寫。
目錄
- 0:00 — 開場介紹 Sandra Huang
- 4:12 — 文化衝擊與對台灣的誤解
- 8:35 — 不同文化間的心理健康差異
- 9:44 — 高效陷阱
- 12:58 — 心理治療領域的剝削現象
- 17:50 — 健康的羞恥感 vs. 毒性羞恥感
- 23:45 — 如何在治療中處理完美主義
- 27:19 — 結語：日誌書寫與定義你自己的高效
逐字稿（以英語錄製）
[0:00:00] Aaron Quiroz: I'll start it in 3, 2, 1. Alright. I'm really excited. We're finally jumping into this. So it's good to have you on, Sandra. I've been looking forward to this and having you as my first guest. So what my idea is for this — I wanted to call it the LifeMaxx Podcast because, you know, it's kind of therapy-centric. We're all therapists. And what we normally do on the day-to-day is help clients kind of max out their life, right, and just improve their life in different ways, in so many different ways. And I'm lucky to have this, like, really diverse team. We all come from different corners of the world and backgrounds and cultures, and I think everybody has something different to bring to the table. And I think the main thing I wanted to get out of this was just kind of, like, have the audience get to know you and what you're about and just kind of, like, your approach to self-improvement in general. And then if you have anything for the listener to walk away with, we could talk about that toward the end. But, yeah, we'll start by just — introduce yourself. Let us know, you know, who you are, where you come from. What brought you to the States? That's always an interesting story to hear.
[0:01:36] Sandra Huang: Yeah. So hi, Aaron.
[0:01:39] Aaron Quiroz: Hello.
[0:01:40] Sandra Huang: Yeah. Hi, all the listeners. So my name is Sandra, and I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor in California. And I've been in the US — I think this year will be my tenth year, actually, anniversary. So — very excited. I can't believe time flies. And what brought me to the States really was the old American dream that I watched a lot of, you know, American TV shows of how coming to the US would be. And I had this, like, bubble. Of course, once I came to this land, the bubble has popped.
[0:02:22] Aaron Quiroz: Oh, okay. So tell me a little bit about that, actually. I'm really curious because I'm always curious as to what parts of the US kind of lived up to your expectations and then what didn't. Because the thing that I'm really curious about is, obviously, they see — like you said, right, you watch shows and movies and stuff. And I'm wondering, like, how accurately we're portrayed here to others because it brings a lot of people, and it works. Right? The advertising is good, but, like, tell me more about that.
[0:02:54] Sandra Huang: Yeah. So, you know, the first state I went to was — because my school was in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. So at that time, I would say primarily the population was very dominantly Caucasian. I was one of the only, you know, international students in my program. So, honestly, in my mind, when I watched American TV shows, I actually always thought it's like, oh, it's this beautiful story that everybody comes from different cultures and works together, talks together. But I didn't realize that maybe that is more of a feature in California. So — yeah. To answer your question, I would say California definitely lived up to, like, that very similar version of my original American dream. I didn't really expect or see the part of, like, the racism that I experienced on the East Coast. And I would say even a lot of people that I know in California, they actually didn't experience what I experienced. Or it can seem very different. Yeah.
[0:04:08] Aaron Quiroz: Yeah. No. Okay. And what was, I guess, on that note, what was the biggest culture shock for you when you got here?
[0:04:21] Sandra Huang: The biggest culture shock was that I thought, you know, America is, like, considered the country that everybody wants to come to. And I kind of had this misconception that everybody would be very international-minded. But a big cultural shock to me was that a lot of my peers at that time, they had never heard of Taiwan, and a lot of them had never traveled outside of the country at all. And, like, that was a shock to me because then they'd ask me, have I ever had pizza before? Do we have Starbucks in Taiwan? And I was like — it was a shock to me because I'd never expected that. I thought they would already know. Maybe they don't know about Taiwan, but then they would already know more about other countries. But their life was actually more secluded than I thought.
[0:05:25] Aaron Quiroz: I gotcha. Okay. So the ignorance of Americans, that's what kind of stood out to you. That makes sense. I'm not well-traveled either, so I learn stuff all the time from you guys. I get that. That makes sense. And then I guess this is maybe the same type of question. What's a misconception about Taiwan that Americans in the US have? That you know of anyway.
[0:06:06] Sandra Huang: Yeah. Actually, a lot of people don't even think Taiwan exists. They mix up Taiwan and Thailand. And — oh, really? Yeah. And they thought — because there's this political situation between China and Taiwan, right? So they feel like Taiwan is part of, you know, China, and then this is probably going to make a lot of people angry. Anyway, let's leave the politics aside. A lot of people, when they see me and hear Taiwan, they'll start, you know, doing kung fu. In front of me, they say, oh, you know this, right? And I'm like, okay. But, like, I don't even really watch that much kung fu growing up. That's not even my favorite, you know, stuff. So I think they have a misconception of, like, Asians — are they all the same, or, like, they're not very aware of what Taiwan is. So I would say the misconception is they don't even know what Taiwan is.
[0:07:09] Aaron Quiroz: Yeah. Wow. Okay. Interesting. Alright. And then if there was anything you'd want people to know, right, as far as kind of what you're talking about with just the misconceptions here? Like, what would you — if the listener was one of those people, right? What would you want them to know about Taiwan, if anything?
[0:07:37] Sandra Huang: Yeah. I would say — yeah. In general, like, right now, I'm sure a lot of people already know about Taiwan. Like, for the past 10 years, a lot of things have changed. But if I could, you know, want people to know about — it's a beautiful island that we have a lot of great food, and we have a lot of, like, nice people that, you know, are very — we're very diverse right now. A lot of foreigners actually came and stayed over as Taiwanese, you know, new immigrants too. So — yeah. We are very welcoming and a very open island country, I would say.
[0:08:20] Aaron Quiroz: Great. Okay. And then I'm curious, right? Because we're in the mental health field here, right? And so the mental health issues there vary from ones you see here. I'm just kind of getting toward your topic, right? I love your topic, by the way, for today.
[0:08:35] Sandra Huang: Yeah. Yeah. I would say it can be different. Like, mental health — I would say for the past 10 years, definitely a lot has changed. The US — I would say Americans have more access or are more open to mental health services, but I think Taiwan really didn't have that openness until recent years. Even my own parents, like, you know, I'm a therapist, but they weren't really open until recently. And I will say the issues or the treatment can feel very different. Like, how I work with Taiwanese people versus how I work with Americans — that itself can already be different.
[0:09:30] Aaron Quiroz: Okay. And then that's kind of getting you onto the topic. Like, I love your topic, by the way. It's great. I wouldn't have even thought of that. It's — so that's a bit of a cultural piece, right? You want to talk a little bit about your topic you wanted to talk about today?
[0:09:44] Sandra Huang: Yeah. So the topic I want to talk about is something that really comes up often in my sessions, probably in your sessions too, Aaron — which is about productivity. Because a lot of my clients that come in — I always hear this type of inner critique: how — like, I'm not productive today. Like, last week, I only exercised once, or I didn't finish this work project. Like, I don't like this. I want to be more productive. How can I be more productive? And — if anything, I would say, not just immigrants or Taiwanese people. A lot of my clients from different cultures actually do experience this type of struggle. And tied to the topic that I want to bring about is kind of to really discuss this with you, Aaron, and kind of share with our listeners that productivity is something maybe rooted in capitalism or, like, you know, there's a long history behind it. Like, there was a need for survival or we would need to produce more. But now we are at a different time. Like, what are we really trying to pursue here in terms of productivity?
[0:11:12] Aaron Quiroz: Absolutely. Yeah. No. I see what you're saying because at the end of the day, right, it's about the flow of liquidity, the flow of money. That's what keeps kind of a strong capitalistic society going, right? It's like the faster the money flows, the better, I guess, for all of us, right, in a way. But where is the line to that, right, as far as individually and just kind of the way a lot of companies here — and I'm sure maybe it's the same over there — a lot of the way companies are designed, like, I've worked for Walmart. Like, I worked, you know, when I was young, when I was a kid. So I know, like, the exploitation. And actually, no — in our field, there are so many exploitative practices out there where they just, like, give the associates 35 clients, and they pay them, like, nothing. It's just — it's disgusting. It's gross, but there's a lot of that out there. And so it's just — yeah. It's everywhere you look. So, yeah, where is that line? Where is enough? You know? And we kind of get imprinted with that in certain ways as far as production equals good, and we don't set a line for ourselves or a boundary for ourselves. And that kind of goes maybe toward some shame, toxic shame, you know, stuff that we come up with around performance, right? When is performance enough? I think that's also a thing — a lack of boundaries within oneself.
[0:12:58] Sandra Huang: Yeah. And, you know, that actually brought up a really good point because the reason why this topic really interests me so much is actually because — I think I have shared this experience with you privately — that, you know, one of my previous companies, when I worked there, I had to see 50 clients —
[0:13:16] Aaron Quiroz: Oh my goodness.
[0:13:17] Sandra Huang: — a week. It was not all therapy sessions, but plus assessments, that's still a lot.
[0:13:22] Aaron Quiroz: Oh, yeah. That's it. That's double full-time at some places. Yeah. That's crazy.
[0:13:29] Sandra Huang: It really hit my limit, and then — but what was really crazy to think about is I still felt like I wasn't enough. Like —
[0:13:38] Aaron Quiroz: Mhmm.
[0:13:39] Sandra Huang: And when I really look back, it was this, you know, story I held about productivity that I carried with me from Taiwan — that you have to keep working. You're never enough. You have to keep doing more. Working is how you can contribute to a society, how you can make your parents proud, and how you define your worth. Yeah. And I will say for a long time, that is how I saw myself, and I also see my clients doing that. I don't know if that's your experience too.
[0:14:18] Aaron Quiroz: As far as which part exactly? Just the kind of — yeah — my worth was based on my work capacity, or that part of it?
[0:14:27] Sandra Huang: Yeah. Well, with your clients, do you see that?
[0:14:30] Aaron Quiroz: Yeah. I've seen it. I've seen it. Definitely. Especially — yeah. And not to, like, get into this, you know, this or that, but a lot of times the male clients — you know, if they're in that traditional role of provider, maybe that's pretty much all they've known, and that's all they've pretty much based their value of themselves on — just, you know, how well I provide. That's — I've seen that a lot. Obviously, it goes, you know, both ways. Seen it on both sides, but that's kind of where I see a lot more in my experience anyway. But, yeah, a lot of people base their value on how much money they make or what they own, right, or just a lot of flash, if you will. Flash without a lot of anything underneath that, if that makes sense. Material, right?
[0:15:39] Sandra Huang: Yeah. And I think on top of material stuff, what I have been seeing as a trend — maybe in the therapist community online or, like, in my clients — what I see is that, okay, they know. They're starting to build this awareness that, yeah, you know, material things are not the only thing. So let me try to explore other things. But then that same type of mindset kind of gets transferred into — how many books do I read? I need to exercise every single day. Did I do the self-care exercise my therapist asked me to do every single day? If I don't, I'm not productive. Or — community. How many trainings have I done or certifications? And personally, I also kind of carry that anxiety sometimes still because I'm like, oh, today I saw clients, but I didn't do training or try to make sure I'm, you know, making myself a better therapist — then I'm not productive. Like, that type of thought will kind of come up.
[0:16:46] Aaron Quiroz: Yeah. Yeah. It's just like an ongoing, like, maybe perfectionism, if you will, right? Like, this is my time that I have. How am I going to use this as productively as possible? And then if you don't, that anxiety starts kind of taking over, right? And kind of scrambling maybe to just use whatever time you have productively. So how do you combat that, though, right? Because that's a tough one to break. And not to imply that this is not a problem, but there are good things that come out of productivity, right? Obviously, there's a lot of good things that come out of it. So that alone, I could see that being a reason for something like this to be hard to break. Like, if you're earning a lot of money because you're so productive and you start, like, you know, getting this lifestyle because of it — hard to not do, hard to go backwards.
[0:17:50] Sandra Huang: Yeah. I think that's a very tough balance to find. And when you were saying that, I was just really thinking in my mind about earlier — you mentioned shame. There is — I believe there is healthy shame and toxic shame. Like, if we can be aware or, like, be curious about what is behind this productivity — like, personally, what I did was, when I experienced a burnout and after, I was really trying to examine what had gone wrong. Like — if anything, though, that productivity does bring me recognition and a lot of experience, like you said. It really benefited me and helped me build a solid foundation, but it's starting to drain me. So — yeah. I think that's when I started. When you asked how can we combat that — maybe I will say, starting to question or challenge: is this productivity, the expectation or standard behind it, is it still supporting me to live the life I want?
[0:19:05] Aaron Quiroz: Yeah.
[0:19:06] Sandra Huang: Or not. But then you ask the question — this lifestyle, okay, maintaining a certain lifestyle that is important, maybe even expanding that. Why? Why is this lifestyle important, or this achievement? Then that really requires us to quiet our mind down to reflect on what is the meaning of us trying to do all of this or live this way, and what is important for us.
[0:19:39] Aaron Quiroz: Yeah. So you maybe take, like, an existential type approach to it and looking at the meaning of it. Yeah. And do you talk about, like, values and stuff like that? Do you get into the values talk?
[0:19:49] Sandra Huang: Yes. Yes. I always do that with clients — about, like, you know, what are the emotional needs that you have. Maybe wanting acceptance, recognition, and I connect that with values. The values — what they really want is maybe balance or connection, community, responsibility. Then we talk about those values that come from them personally and their family values. How can we — I think a lot of them will fear — but me personally too — when we don't hit a certain productivity, we feel we fail. We are not honoring those family values. So then what I really do is, let's talk about ways: can we honor the values that you have, honor that relationship, while taking care of yourself and being productive in a way that does not harm us?
[0:20:55] Aaron Quiroz: Yeah. Okay. Interesting. You mentioned something earlier too that I was curious about. So you mentioned that there's, like, obviously, toxic shame and then healthy shame. Can you dive a little more into that?
[0:21:11] Sandra Huang: Yeah. So I think that really was just part of my thinking because I feel like we always feel like shame is something that's very bad. But I think recently — actually, you know what? Recently, I started to feel like maybe shame is something — it's a human experience that we all will feel.
[0:21:34] Aaron Quiroz: Mhmm.
[0:21:35] Sandra Huang: And where toxic shame comes from is when we don't want to face it or when we feel like it shouldn't exist, or when we really may be limiting our position into maybe victim or perpetrator, you know, or something — whether someone is doing harm or receiving harm. And then we are kind of being trapped in one story.
[0:22:10] Aaron Quiroz: Yeah.
[0:22:10] Sandra Huang: And I always feel like that could be toxic shame because —
[0:22:15] Aaron Quiroz: Yeah.
[0:22:15] Sandra Huang: — life has no other possibilities or hope. But I feel a healthy shame is to acknowledge that, yeah, I do feel shameful or embarrassed or that I did something that I'm not very proud of.
[0:22:34] Aaron Quiroz: Mhmm.
[0:22:36] Sandra Huang: And that's okay. That's part of the human experience because we are flawed.
[0:22:42] Aaron Quiroz: Yeah. Absolutely. So basically, you're saying that the function of the shame is kind of what makes it — because shame is shame, right? But then if it's a shame you're stuck in and it's kind of giving you this, how do you say, tunnel vision — that's more toxic. Whereas if it's a shame that serves a function of helping you to do better, that's the function. That's okay. That makes sense. Yeah. I've been talking lately with my clients about how emotions are neutral. All of them are neutral in that they're just messengers. They're telling us something. We should look at what they're telling us, not so much trying to shoot the messenger. So, yeah, I've been taking a similar approach as well. And how else do you approach this with clients as far as just this perfectionism and this need to be as productive as humanly possible?
[0:23:45] Sandra Huang: Yeah. I think, first of all, you really need to acknowledge what they have been working on, what they have been upholding, which is this professionalism and this standard of production. I wouldn't say it's easy because it's something that they've carried their whole life.
[0:24:06] Aaron Quiroz: Oh, yeah.
[0:24:07] Sandra Huang: Depends on their age, right? Some clients come in when they're 60 — that's what they've believed their whole life. And —
[0:24:13] Aaron Quiroz: Yeah. Right?
[0:24:15] Sandra Huang: Yeah. So it's like, if I deny this way of productivity, then you're saying my whole life is wrong. So how I would usually approach it is to really honor that self that follows this productivity, this template. You know, it's not all bad. Yes, it has caused some draining or caused some illness or there's some issue and you want to change. And I will say sometimes there will be guilt when you realize that something is wrong — I don't want to live like this, but I don't know how to. You know how our clients come in at that precontemplation or contemplation stage?
[0:25:00] Aaron Quiroz: Yeah. Mhmm.
[0:25:01] Sandra Huang: I feel like they are in that in-between place — to kind of honor that, recognize that they are in that space that, yeah, if I don't have to be productive every day, and that's okay — knowing that there's a possibility there and knowing that there is resistance when I hear this new perspective. That I don't need to rush myself to get there, but know that, okay, there's something there. And if I want to be there, if I want to live a life like that, what can I do differently? Can I experiment? If not, I can always go back to the original way of productivity I'm doing, and that is still okay. I think maybe — I like to frame it in a way that they have a choice.
[0:25:48] Aaron Quiroz: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Nice. Alright. And then, yeah, is there anything else you want to say about this topic at all?
[0:25:58] Sandra Huang: Yeah. I would say, really, I just like to encourage people to think about — like, when they are, you know, watching TV or scrolling their phone, instead of saying, oh my god, I'm so not productive — like, before they jump into that, you know, self-criticizing mode, or when they can catch themselves — or us as therapists, our fellow colleagues — that we can catch ourselves saying, ah, maybe there's something there. Why do I criticize myself when I have worked hard for so long and I still choose to criticize myself, judge myself, instead of understanding my need for rest and play and joy? Why do I do that? So be curious about that.
[0:26:55] Aaron Quiroz: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Great. And then if there's anything — any one thing, right? Or I guess you just gave us something. But if there's anything else, right, you wanted to leave the listener to maybe take with them, try out — could be a skill, a thought, anything at all — what would you want to leave the listener with today?
[0:27:19] Sandra Huang: Oh, you know, I have tried to rehearse this in my mind for so long. I feel like every time I thought about it, I have different answers.
[0:27:29] Aaron Quiroz: I'm sure they're all great.
[0:27:33] Sandra Huang: Yeah. But if on top of my mind in this moment —
[0:27:39] Aaron Quiroz: Mhmm.
[0:27:40] Sandra Huang: A takeaway is, I would say, be honest with ourselves. Like — about productivity, about life. Is this something that truly aligns with me or no? And if we can — because I believe if we can start being honest, then we can be open to something that is different. And maybe if I can kind of connect this with a little tool — journaling is a great tool, you know? Talking to someone who you trust, talking to your therapist about — if I have to be very honest, if I can be very honest, what is the definition of my productivity? Can I create my own productivity, or what would productivity be if I cast aside society's voice?
[0:28:47] Aaron Quiroz: Yeah.
[0:28:49] Sandra Huang: So — yeah. Sorry. That's probably more than one thing.
[0:28:53] Aaron Quiroz: No. No. That's amazing, though, by the way. That's really — I love that because at the end of the day, we're each kind of a silo, right? And until we bounce it either off a journal or off somebody else who can give us some constructive feedback, we're kind of stuck with this television. And, you know, at the end of the day, it could be argued one way or another, but we can't answer our own questions, right? I mean, we see things a certain way. We have our own perspectives that we've developed over time. So we have tunnel vision. We have certain colored-lens glasses, right? And so I love that. Because when I do go back and read stuff I've written down, oh, man. I see how much I've grown over time. It's cringey, but it helps because it's like, damn, I used to think like this. And I'm sure if we wrote it down today and looked at it tomorrow, we might have a similar feeling.
[0:29:50] Sandra Huang: Yeah.
[0:29:51] Aaron Quiroz: So excellent. I love that. Alright. Well, thank you. Thank you so much. That was great. How was it for you? How was it for you?
[0:30:00] Sandra Huang: Yeah. This is my very first English podcast, so I am very excited.
[0:30:06] Aaron Quiroz: Wow. What was the other one you did?
[0:30:09] Sandra Huang: I have other podcasts, like, in Mandarin. But I stopped doing it, like, maybe 2, 3 years ago because of life circumstances. But —
[0:30:20] Aaron Quiroz: Oh, okay. What was it about in particular, if you don't mind me asking?
[0:30:25] Sandra Huang: Yeah. It was about just anything. It was about a little bit about psychology, about — like, movies, TV shows. We talked about humanity. We talked about supernatural stuff, aliens — all types of topics, I would say.
[0:30:41] Aaron Quiroz: Yeah. Just free-flowing. Yeah. Alright. Yeah. Did you want to plug that or plug anything else? Did you want to put anything out there?
[0:30:50] Sandra Huang: No. I think, well, you know, I'm just really glad to, you know, be on your podcast and to share this topic with the listeners. And, like, I'm really learning a lot. I don't even feel like this is a podcast. I feel like we are just having our regular conversations.
[0:31:09] Aaron Quiroz: Yeah. And that's what I want — that's kind of what I wanted it to be. I wanted it to be very conversational and just, you know, free-flowing and just, you know, not super-duper structured because, you know, that's not how humans should always be talking, right? So yeah. If you are struggling with perfectionism or the over-need for productivity — Sandra Huang, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it. And, yeah, till next time. I can't wait to do this again.
[0:31:42] Sandra Huang: Thank you, everyone. Thank you, everyone.
[0:31:45] Aaron Quiroz: Mhmm.